In this week's episode, we circle back to understand the third principle of a circular economy: 'regenerating nature', and its application in the fashion industry. Our guest, Josie Warden, former Head of Regenerative Design at the RSA, joins us as we explore how circular design offers a way to create a fashion industry that can flourish in harmony with nature.
In this week's episode, we circle back to understand the third principle of a circular economy: 'regenerating nature', and its application in the fashion industry. Our guest, Josie Warden, former Head of Regenerative Design at the RSA, joins us as we explore how circular design offers a way to create a fashion industry that can flourish in harmony with nature.
Learn more about The RSA and their work to create an impact.
If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more like it, please take a moment to leave us a review on your preferred podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more people interested in the circular economy!
Pippa Shawley 00:03
A circular economy is based on three principles: eliminating waste and pollution, circulating products and materials and regenerating nature, all by design. When you think about that last point, regenerating nature, your brain might leap straight to farming and green spaces, but it applies to all aspects of our economy. Welcome to the circular economy show, I'm Pippa. In this episode, we're circling back to a conversation my colleague Laura had with Josie Warden, former Head of Regenerative Design at the RSA. They spoke at the launch of the Ellen MacArthur Foundation's book, Circular Design for Fashion, in 2022. We'll hear them discuss what regenerative can mean within the fashion industry, the role of innovators and how Josie's First Nation Canadian heritage inspires her to see the interconnectedness in our world. Laura started by asking Josie about the word regenerative.
Laura Franco Henao 00:58
One of the principles of the circular economy. I mean, the three principles: eliminate waste and pollution circulate products and materials, and then third one is regenerate nature. And I know that through your work at the RSA, you also explore this concept a lot in different ways. So could you explain a little bit more what you mean... what regenerative means to you?
Josie Warden 01:18
I guess on the sort of single sentence level, I think it's about like that idea of leaving things better than the way you found them. And I think that is a fundamental shift in a lot of ways of thinking around particularly environment, which is really exemplified in the circular economy. That shift from like doing less harm to actually thinking how do you really change things so that you're leaving things in a better state. But I think kind of another layer of it is also that sense that there is the world is a living system, and that things will be constantly changing and evolving over time. So we need to also think about how we when moving to a circular economy, how we kind of create processes and systems that enable that continual change to keep happening over time. And so the idea of being regenerative is then thinking about how you kind of create the conditions for that stuff to keep changing and to let kind of release the potential that exists in people and in communities to kind of keep meeting the new challenges that will come down the line. So I think that's how we're kind of seeing it have that sense of it being a living process. And that actually, the other part of it is that the things that everything that we look at is nested. So when we're looking at says like environment, society, economy, these things are not sort of separate pieces. But we're all interconnected. And that feels like a really important thing to explore within how we then move into a circular economy.
Laura Franco Henao 02:36
And what about the, like the use of regenerative within the fashion industry?
Josie Warden 02:42
Yeah, so I think it's really interesting in the last year, I think, during the pandemic, seeing the shift within the fashion industry, becoming to talk more about regeneration. And I think it's kind of come from this sense that there is I mean, it's been building for a number of years, but that really, I think, has been this huge recognition, both from the industry and publicly about the negative impacts of fashion. And the way the fashion industry has been going about change, I think in the last few years has been over the last decade maybe has been quite piecemeal of like, let's create a single line of clothing that is like our sustainable brand. Or let's think about our modern material that we're putting into things. And I think both people and businesses are recognising actually, all of these things are not enough to kind of tweak those additional things. So it feels like the regenerative kind of conversation and fashion has come about from that sense of, actually, we know it's not enough to do these kind of small things on the edge, we need to really think about much more kind of radical and ambitious change. And that's where it's coming from. I think at the moment, it's still, the kind of conversation in fashion is still quite focused on particular materials and how that connects to agriculture, for example, which is really important, because that conversation, I think, has been around for a while there's been quite a gap and a divide between like agriculture and where materials come from, and then the industry itself. But I think it can be really exciting. And hopefully, if the next year or so seeing fashion, think about actually how does that also go beyond materials into maybe how they work with the rest of their supply chain, how they kind of develop their business to enable them to kind of support people and the environment in the same way, so I feel like it's a it's really an interesting transition for the industry at the moment around this kind of concept of regeneration.
Laura Franco Henao 04:26
Definitely, and I think, I mean, we're seeing a lot of changes and a lot of, let's say new commitments by organisations, thinking beyond their materials. So obviously, it's one of the main things when they think about their circular design, how they apply circular design as part of their business, but they are also going beyond that thinking about the business models, how people can access whatever they put into the market and also what happens at the end like what kind of systems do we need in place to like get those products and materials to be kept in use. What is the link between this kind of regenerative thinking or mindset and circular design?
Josie Warden 05:04
I think I guess I say is like a really key mindset shift within, that designers need within circular economy into designs for circularity, because it, I think it sort of sets you on a trajectory of thinking like, actually, firstly, we're working in a world that is interconnected. So when I make a decision about my, the fabrics I use, that has an impact kind of down the supply chain, to where it came from, as impact on to where it's gonna go in the future. And that kind of getting used to doing that kind of zooming in and zooming out, which I think they talk a lot about in the design guide book. I think that that is a mindset shift that is really helpful to start seeing those kinds of nested interconnections. So I think it kind of underpins that kind of way of thinking. And I think that second piece is then around, like, how do you create the capabilities for people to keep making change over time? So I feel like it's still those two areas of seeing things as interdependent and seeing things as like, if I created, you know, pair of jeans that needs to go into the market? How do I also think about the fact that the the kind of system around how people buy things that you might be might look different in 20 years time. So bearing in mind those kind of different layers of things. I think that's what regenerative thinking helps you to kind of look at those different mindsets, in new ways.
Laura Franco Henao 06:19
And let's talk a little bit more about the work you do. As Head of Regenerative Design at the at the RSA, why futures? Do you think that that could, that maybe that can divert some people from thinking about action in the present? Or why did we call it 'regenerative futures'?
Josie Warden 06:36
Yeah, so we call it futures rather than future, because we guess we're kind of focused on this is like, we don't know what exactly this is gonna look like. Similarly, with circular economy like we do you know what the ambition is, but we don't know exactly how that's gonna play out. So it's a good to have the opportunity to come to be able to explore it in different ways, and that it might look different in different places. So the futures bit is really important. And I think it's also trying to build that sense that this is not a sort of one time solution. That actually this is a kind of, and I think that is another mindset shift is seeing this as like, somebody needs to keep working out. And I think they talked about this in the book as well, about the circular economy, I mean, it's something that can be kind of solved, it's a kind of process of becoming, always and like, how can you keep changing because they'll always give you more depth, so you can go to or new things you can explore. I think that's why we focus on that idea of like moving futures, and it kind of keep going keeping you go forward. But there are so many examples of this stuff happening in practice today. And again, as the book kind of ruins the life that I think you're right part of it is then trying to explain to people and show people inspire people like what's happening now, of what this could all look like, potentially.
Laura Franco Henao 07:46
And I guess that for some people like circular design, I mean, something that is very clear to me is that there are many ways of applying circular design to the work you do depending on actually what your role is, within the fashion industry. And it can maybe seem a little bit abstract sometimes for people. And I know that in your last report, you kind of created these guiding principles for designers to apply, could you tell us a little bit more about what they are?
Josie Warden 08:11
Yes, so we created a set of eight principles to support designers to think in a regenerative way when they're working. And then that's trying to kind of move... get you to get over the sort of automatic way of thinking that you might have. And so it's very much thinking like if you want to move towards this circular economy, where you're thinking about eliminating, circulating, regenerating, what are some of the practices you might need to support you. And so we've looked at quite a range of things, but I'll pick on a couple of them. So one was, is around designing for circulation of all kinds of things. So we're talking about how you circulate materials. But actually, in order to get to a circular economy, you also need to think about how you circulate things like information, data. And then also other things maybe like finance or power agency, because we definitely found working with designers like they don't always have all of the information they need to be able to design a whole product. So as you how do you think about circulation beyond the material piece? Another one we looked at was thinking about what is this kind of idea of nestedness? So how are you work on a project and being sure that you're looking at the next couple of layers up? So if I'm working on a pair of jeans, how do I have that influence in my organisation? How is that maybe then influencing the way jeans are designed across the industry. And one big area that we think is really important is starting the idea starting from place and context. And that's again, maybe flipping a conversation that when you have a big kind of global supply chain or big global industry, it's feels quite intuitive to start, like the big side, how do you make change in the kind of big way? Those big players but actually, what were quite interested in the idea of regeneration is also how do you work from what is the kind of assets that are within a place so that could be a town, it could be an organisation, and building things up from there. And that's quite a sort of shift in mindset for a lot of designers to be thinking about. So that's one of the principles too, but they're all designed to kind of get people to think slightly differently about how they're approaching the work that they're doing, and to create sort of spaces for for new ideas to emerge.
Laura Franco Henao 10:17
Is this kind of place-based approach... Is it something that you feel like the circular economy perhaps is not doing? Like, it's not really taking into account at the moment, the narrative? I guess, we do see a lot in cities. But for example, I don't know like thinking about a village or a town or I don't know, a different kind of scales and levels. Yeah. Well, do you think we need to do to kind of like, let's say, put this in place?
Josie Warden 10:44
Yeah, I think it is a bit of a gap at the moment, as you say, there to kind of focus on things within cities. But I think it's the... I think the idea of if we're moving to a very different system, do we try and design that at a big scale, and then like, landed in different places? And the, I guess, the RSA, we work a lot on kind of social change things. And this challenge, you see, if that happens, within policy, you design something, that big layer, and then you try and land it in a place, you get a kind of kick back reaction, because it's it doesn't suit that place. It's not tailored, it doesn't work. And I think the benefit we have with circular economy, because it's trying to move to a very different system is actually how could we, rather than look at that kind of homogenous idea, think about maybe there could be lots of different multiple ways of doing things that collectively can add up to a different system. And I think that's the beauty of the idea of distribution within circular economy. So I think there's so much kind of fertile opportunities within places to look at new solutions that can work for that place. And it might, I think, it probably should be the case that, you know, a fashion brand working in California actually has quite a different approach to a fashion brand working in Mysore or in Mumbai, or because they have different contexts. So I think that's really important. I think it helps people and communities to make sense of what's going on if you do if you kind of work from what's in place. But it also just offers offers the opportunity to do things totally different. So as an example, there's organisations called Fibersheds, who are working around the world looking at different ways that local regions can grow fibre and dye systems. So in this case, we're talking about California looking at different kinds of things in the UK, we're looking particularly at wool, and materials that might be able to be grown here. And that is just a totally different way of looking at supply chains where normally you're looking to kind of homogenised things. So I think there's a lot of potential in that of like growing, growing different kinds of systems from place. But at the moment, there isn't the resource and infrastructure to enable that across different sectors. So I think feel that that's an important gap to be looking at.
Laura Franco Henao 12:53
And what about the role of Intrapreneurs? Because I know you, you've worked on this programme called rethink fashion, in which you have a cohort of different intrapreneurs working on different, let's say, areas of the fashion industry. What's the role? And and what did you let's say, what are the main learnings that you took from this programme?
Josie Warden 13:10
Yeah, yeah, so we worked with 12 creatives from across different parts of the fashion system. And we did that intentionally because they are all, I guess, representing different kind of perspectives. So we have some for manufacturing, some from design, some from marketing. And the kind of purpose was to see how they as both individuals, but also the collective could increase their impact by developing and enhancing their kind of circular design credentials. And I think the kind of key, the delegates, the role of innovators in that space is for them to be able to kind of signal a new future, they are not encumbered by the kind of challenges of the existing many existing businesses and they're like, can see, I guess, see that kind of direction and where things could go. So that's, that's their role. And it's what's so exciting about what they do what's so difficult about what they do is, it's often so kind of future looking, that it's sometimes difficult to kind of get the resource or get the network that can enable them to make that happen. And they're also then working within a system which has been geared up to some, you know, kind of, for one version of success. So what we wanted to do with the group was really see how they can support each other to be a kind of field of practice that collectively and making change together. Because I think it can often be a very lonely place, to me that kind of innovators. So for them to be able to support one another recognise that don't have the whole picture of themselves, learn from each other, and then kind of work as a collective field to support wider change. And I think I guess that recognising that role of kind of convening and creating the imagination infrastructure, so how do they collectively think what that future is? And where do they want to go together? And how can they then kind of work back from that into what are the seeds that they can put in practice together? within their own organisation, but also collectively that can help that to move forward. And I think that that kind of role is really important because it starts to build that kind of field of practice as opposed to just individual innovations. And I think that then enables them to get to have that more kind of collective impact.
Laura Franco Henao 15:18
So we're getting towards the end, but I wanted to ask you a couple of big questions, I would say. One is like, what is the kind of like, bottleneck or challenge, you know, that it's, you know, preventing, let's say, a circular economy for fashion to kind of scale? Yeah, which one is the one that excites you the most to, you know, to work on the topic and focusing on finding solutions?
Josie Warden 15:44
So I think the big bottleneck I see, which is quite philosophical, is I think, a lot around like, mindsets of how we understand the world. And I think the kind of seeing humans as separate from the environment, underpins so much of our culture, but actually then really affects the way we think about the work that we do, how we relate to each other. And on my dad's side, I'm First Nation Canadian. And I just love the kind of the different perspective that that brings that, that that that part of my family brings on actually seeing the world as living and interconnected. And, you know, the trees and the plants being your relations and not being inanimate objects. And that's just like a totally different way of seeing things. But I think if you have those different, like underpinnings, you can then build up like different ways of doing stuff. So I feel like there's a big philosophical mindset thing that I think is challenging, and I think is actually shifting a lot. Even recently, I've noticed people talking about like, you know, life being not just humans, but other things. That I think in practice, when it comes to kind of the industry level side of things, I think the definitely like how we measure success is a real is a really big challenge. Because without those different measures, you will find people who are innovating within industries, and within businesses who always hit a kind of immune response, because they what they're doing doesn't get captured or recognised within the kind of current way of thinking of things. So that's why I think things like, like the donut kind of economics framing of like, actually, how do you look at different measures, and therefore, what different business models are enabled to let you try things in a different way. So I think there's like a deep, deep seated thing, but then also some very, like clear structural things as you kind of go up. But I think education is a big thing to like supporting designers to, to learn differently, because again, I think the industry is quite siloed in how designers learn. So if you're able to kind of bring people together in that layer two, that starts to kind of create changes.
Laura Franco Henao 17:47
Thank you, Josie, for being here with me.
Josie Warden 17:49
Thank you very much!
Pippa Shawley 17:53
So there you go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation between Josie and Lauer as much as I did. As Josie said, it's important to think beyond the materials, and then how to apply secular design to the whole supply chain. Later in this series, we'll revisit Laura's conversation with rudo Nanda from Fashion Revolution, who discussed why storytelling is at the heart of circular design for fashion, and the lessons she's taken from Zimbabwe's clothing industry. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Circular Economy Show from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. If you liked it, then please leave a review or share it on your socials to help us spread the word. See you next time.