As we heard in our recent Redesigning Food series, our food system needs to be redesigned to help nature and people thrive. In our final episode from London, we meet Julie Brown, Director of Growing Communities, and Danny Fisher from Better Food Shed, about how they’re working to supply Londoners with healthy, regeneratively-produced fruit and vegetables.
As we heard in our recent Redesigning Food series, our food system needs to be redesigned to help nature and people thrive.
In our final episode from London, we meet Julie Brown, Director of Growing Communities, and Danny Fisher from Better Food Shed, about how they’re working to supply Londoners with healthy, regeneratively-produced fruit and vegetables.
Find out more about circular economy in cities
Seb Read 0:02
As we heard in our recent food series, a circular economy can help to build a food system that regenerates nature, eliminates waste and helps to feed our growing population. But how does this play out in a city? In the final part of our London series, we talked to Growing Communities and the Better Food Shed, who are harnessing the buying power of their local communities, to bring nutritious, regeneratively grown food, straight into the heart of the city. I'm your host Seb, and this is the Circular Economy Show Podcast by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. I started by speaking to Julie Brown, the director of Growing Communities, who gave us an overview of the organisation and what it's all about.
Julie Brown 0:44
We set up Growing Communities originally because we wanted to help make the food and farming system more sustainable, more climate friendly, more nature friendly. And we wanted to do that by harnessing the buying power of our community and focusing it towards those farmers that we believe need to be the foundation of such a system. So that's kind of been, in big terms, what we wanted to do. In very practical terms, what we do is we run a weekly box scheme that serves around 1400 customers in Hackney. We run a weekly Organic Farmers Market, which serves an equivalent number of people. We also do some food growing ourselves here in Hackney, so we run a patchwork farm and we also have a farm in Dagenham. But the majority of our produce comes from farmers in what we call the rural hinterland, so it's farmers in Kent and Essex. And so, in total, we trade with around 25 or so farmers. And we feed around 6000 people a week. On our sites, we also do training and we do outreach work on our own growing sites. So that's kind of what Growing Communities does. We've also, a few years ago, probably a decade ago now, we decided we were trying to help other groups to set up similar projects. So we launched something called our startup programme. And as a result of that we helped, I don't know, 10 or 15 other communities with their box schemes to get up and running. And they have since sort of formed in something we're calling the Better Food Traders network, which we also run. So we have the Better Food Traders network, we have Growing Communities, who are a member of the Better Food Traders network. And then most recently, we have all of the Better Food Traders who were trading in London, we basically realised that we needed to aggregate that supply chain, because we had farmers that were coming in and delivering to six different farmers, I mean, six different retailers. So we set up the Better Food Shed so that those farmers could deliver to one place, then the produce is aggregated and then delivered by electric van to all of the traders.
Seb Read 3:03
So these initiatives go way beyond a simple marketplace for food. And we'll be diving deeper on supply chains with Better Food Shed later. But I was interested to hear next what Julie's plans for the future of Growing Communities are.
Julie Brown 3:17
Okay, in terms of our customer base, we aim to make our produce as affordable as we can. We have pensions on the scheme, we accept Healthy Start vouchers, we also have a percentage of people who identify as on low incomes. But the truth is that the food does cost more, when you compare it to what a customer could get, obviously in a pound box, outside, you know, down at Ridley Road Market or something. In terms of how it compares to other organic produce in the supermarkets, we compare very favourably to that. So, but we already know that that costs more. And the reason it costs more is because that produce is building in all the external costs that the rest of the food system isn't accommodating, so, as I said, the public goods that those farmers are providing, and also the damage to the environment, to the climate and to diets, you know, to public health. So we're attempting to build that into our whole package. So the system as a whole that we run, it's very, it's highly productive in terms of the yields of our, you know, from our farmers, it's highly productive in terms of the great jobs it produces. It's highly productive in terms of its climate savings, the way that it nurtures soil, the way that it promotes nature, and it's inherently low. The system is inherently low in terms of the waste that it produces, because the way we designed it and also in terms of its climate impact, so it kind of works in the round. But we have to have, as you said, it's quite complicated and we have to get all of those elements working together.
Seb Read 4:51
While Growing Communities are making regeneratively grown food more accessible, it's clear that the food system must change to make it more affordable. Next, I asked Julie how places like Growing Communities are benefiting the local community.
Julie Brown 5:05
We know we're small scale. But we know that we're having incredibly positive impacts across a whole range of areas. So in terms of the farmers that we're supporting the kind of farming production, the systems were supporting, absolutely, those are benefits to the climate and nature, and to those farmers to the, you know, to the rural communities in which they work. In terms of what we do here, we're creating work, we're creating good work. And we're building wealth here and this community that we're also based in. So I think, I think, you know, our customers, our members get a pretty amazing deal too, because even though they do, they do need to make the choice to pay more for their food and to have their diets limited, in the most positive way that we can do that. But what they get from that is... I mean, we did a report recently with the New Economics Foundation and they showed that for every pound that a customer spends with us, they... it generates three pounds 70 more of public benefits to them personally, to the farmers and the environment, and to the local economy. So it's a pretty good deal. It's a pretty good deal across the board. I suppose that the most... one of the most, the biggest challenges in relation to this system, is that currently it relies on... it relies on basically citizens, people getting this and choosing to invest their time and their money in projects like this. And understanding that, and wanting to support it and stick with it. And so, you know, that's a major challenge as we move forward as well into cost of living crisis and all of the issues, as I've said before. So, I mean, what we kind of need, what we need is for other, we need other routes to market that are not going to be absolute reliant on citizens choosing to make the right choice. So, such things as public procurement, it would be really amazing if local authorities could start investing more and basically sourcing more produce from projects like this. And, that they could help they could start supporting the kind of retailers, supporting local food growing, you know, helping with planning and reducing our costs, essentially, because what we've got here is an economic system that is playing against everything that we're trying to do. We've got an economic system that's stacked against us. And we are basically pushing against that with this model that is economically viable, but we have to work really hard to make this work. And we could do with some help from people helping to level that playing field and local authorities would be a key player in that.
Seb Read 7:56
So what are local authorities doing to support on this journey?
Julie Brown 7:59
In the policy landscape, in terms of if we're thinking about local authorities and government. I mean, well, I mean, frankly, we could do with the government that got some of this, but we're so far from any of that. So we're in a... we're in an economy where regulation, standards, rules are totally not on the cards and haven't been for many years, which is actually why we chose the model that we do, which is to reach out to consumers, customers, citizens and get them to work with us to help to change the food system. But obviously, in terms of levelling, that economic playing field, if we had the supermarkets and agribusiness who were happy to meet standards on, you know, sourcing organic and on waste, and on what they paid to farmers, we'd have a very different, you know, the economics of the system would start to be very different. And also, in terms of farming, at the moment, we've got the new environmental land management schemes coming in. And so what we really, you know, what we really need is the farmers who are doing the best to farm sustainably to be rewarded for that. And then all the cost for that can be passed on. So at the moment, we're paying all of those within our small, you know, this system that we've got, and we're still managing to make that work. But if we, you know, some checks and balances along the way to help level this wider thing, so that basically the people that were polluting, were paying for that, and that that was going into the system. I mean, I think alongside that what we also need is, obviously, we need recognition that people need to be able to access good food at an affordable price. So we need other things coming into the system that are going to support people with those costs and with living wages and such things as Healthy Start and other you know other systems that will help people who are struggling.
Seb Read 9:56
We've heard Judy touched upon the impact that Growing Communities has locally, but what is the vision to make this work at scale?
Julie Brown 10:04
In terms of our longest, you know, our ambitions, I mean, our ambitions are never ending, you know. We just want to carry on going and making the best contribution that we can. But in terms of the scale that we operate at, yeah, I'm quite happy for us to grow a bit more. But we're also... what we did with the startup programme in the Better Food Traders is to basically promoting a decentralised redistributed model. So we want all of these other communities to be doing similar things. But what's got to underpin or what currently does underpin that it's a common set of principles around how we trade. So, the whole farmer focus runs through all of those, those systems, those are the people that are doing these things. So we're doing it in slightly different ways in their communities. But in terms of the underlying kind of principles, those are in common, and that's what, you know, will make the whole system work. So I want all of them to grow, I want us to carry on growing. In terms of the Better Food Shed, which I think Danny's gonna... you know, Danny's going to talk to you about, you know, it'd fantas...You know, it'd be amazing if we had more better food sheds. I mean, around London and in other urban centres where it made sense. But you also have to have all the other traders working there. So it's a bit, you know, there's a catch 22 going on. How do you... you need to get the traders in place in order to get the shed in place. And it's, you know, you need enough, you need enough demand. You need enough demand to make these systems work. And that's his, you know, that's what we do. That's what we do here is we work our... I was gonna say we work our asses off. We work... we do work our asses off, we work really, really hard to basically harness the buying power of our community in order to support this wider system.
Seb Read 11:46
So Growing Communities are providing a practical alternative to our current food system, that with the right support could change what we eat, how we eat and how it's farmed. So how can the people of London effectively create the support needed for agroecological farming to become the main source of food in the UK? Well, we spoke to Danny Fisher from Better Food Shed, a London based wholesale supplier of fresh, organic, locally sourced fruit and vegetables. Better Food Shed is a nonprofit organisation that is committed to putting farmers and growers first. They support small businesses to run in an ecologically sound way to help build a better food system. I started by asking Danny to give me an overview of their processes, how it all works, and what makes it circular.
Danny Fisher 12:35
The Better Food Shed is, I guess, in essence, an aggregator of agroecological produce from across the UK. A bit like a wholesaler, we currently supply box schemes, our veg box schemes across London. We are a bit like a buying group, I guess in many respects. We supply box schemes across London. We started 3-4 years ago, as a result of, born out of the fact that box schemes were unable to source as many producers, they'd like to form independent farms. So by forming a buying group, we gave ourselves the opportunity... the box scheme gives us the opportunity to reach out to suppliers from further afield, and to get more and more direct supply into London. We're farmer focused in that we work with farmers to sell their produce for them. We work with them to build cropping plans together. So they are growing stuff for us that we need. And in exchange, we make a commitment to them to sell what they have. So there's that element of it. And then we are I guess you could say zero waste by design. And that, because we have that relationship with farmers where they grow specifically for us and we commit to buying stuff from them, there isn't as much waste produced on farm. We make the effort or the commitment to buy everything we can from them and that enables them to make sure they maximise their harvest, that they can plan their labour in advance. They can plan what they grow in advance, which helps reduce the waste involved. The other key thing is that we're able to, because we have a buy-in essentially from all the box schemes, they're committed to what we do, they're also farmer focused, they will... we can guide them into what they can use each week to make sure that our farmers sell everything. And then the other side of it is that we only buy what we have on order, which prevents us from having like a conventional wholesaler has to stock everything, all produce, in order to be able to fulfil the needs of restaurants and shops and people that need food on a more instant basis.
Seb Read 14:53
I was interested to hear more about their relationship with farmers so asked Danny about the farms that Better Food Shed currently buys their produce from.
Danny Fisher 15:01
We currently buy produce from small and medium farms, small and medium agroecological, predominantly organic farms across the UK. We have a set of core farmers that are based around London that we have, I guess you could say the biggest commitment to. And then then we supplement that with produce from across the UK. Basically using the diverse geography and climate that we've got across the UK to maximise what is available in a UK season.
Seb Read 15:31
Danny briefly mentioned how farmers are able to take advantage of the diverse climate in the UK. I want to know more about this. So I asked Danny to give you an example of how it works.
Danny Fisher 15:41
So I like to use carrots as a great example of what... of how the different climate, and soil types, and geography across the UK allows us to maximise the UK harvest if you like. So carrots, for example, we get our first... our early carrots from Norfolk, on the fence where the soil is really light, farmers can get onto the soil nice and early in February to plant those carrots. They get lots of warmth, and they're early in June. And then basically what happens in the UK is we kind of follow carrots up the coast. So the first early carrots are ready in Norfolk, then we move on to carrots from Lincolnshire, then we move up to carrots in Yorkshire, all the way up to Scotland, where they grow... where they start later. And they finish later. And then come all the way back down again. So we basically have nearly UK, we always have in season UK carrots, and that's the benefit of using different types of soil and geography to maximise the length of season in the UK. Because that's one of the big challenges in sourcing UK produce is that the season, you know, we have long, -I'm sure as you're aware-, long, cold winters. And that's, that restricts what we're able to produce in this country. So using that... using things like the different geography in different climates is one of the things that we have to extend the season as much as possible.
Seb Read 17:06
Next up, I asked Danny about some of the challenges that the Better Food Shed is currently facing.
Danny Fisher 17:13
There are a number of quite large challenges we face, weekly, but also, I guess, in general: climate change, the effects of climate change is a really big one basically every year. And this is more pertinent now than any other point, obviously, because we're talking at the end of a, or in the middle of quite a large drought. But every year there is a, once in a decade or once in a generation, weather event that causes serious disruption to the UK harvest, that is a really big and pressing problem that is constantly with us. Then we have a cost of living crisis and marrying the kind of the conflicting needs of both consumers to be able to, all our box schemes, to be able to buy produce, and pass it on at an affordable rate to their customers. Marrying that with the ever increasing costs of production from farmers, who... particularly wages, you know, all of the other supply chain stuff that goes with producing food. So those are the sort of two main problems if you like, or challenges that we currently have. I think there's also a kind of on a... in a wider sense with our consumers, people that buy veg boxes is that there is a gap, I guess a knowledge gap between what seasonal food is meant to be and what the reality of it is. I think in this country we have, you know, there needs to be a re-education about what food goes in this country and when. Particularly around like veganism and vegetarian thing, quite often includes vegetables from all around the world all of the time. And that is a really big, it's a big barrier to overcome for lots of box schemes in terms of educating and trying to get customers to understand the reality of a UK seasonal veg bag.
Seb Read 19:13
So we've heard about the challenges, but what does this future look like? Can we create a food value chain big enough to deal with London's increasing demand?
Danny Fisher 19:22
I mean, really, it's a really exciting opportunity. And the reason that I've got involved with starting that Better Food Shed in the first place was the idea of being able to get more... to get as much agroecologically produced food to as many people as possible. The exciting thing about the shed is that we've created a supply chain that can... that can source a large amount of produce. And really, the sort of the exciting thing coming up down the road is combining that working with local authorities to provide them with more produce because at the moment the box schemes model ultimately, is for people who are able to afford to buy produce. The sort of lever of local institutions buying produce allows us to get produce out to everyone in a way that prior to this wasn't feasible or conceivable.
Seb Read 20:20
So for Danny and Julie, every acre farmed regeneratively is a step away from the destructive farming practices of today. And by supporting farms of small and large scales, Growing Communities and Better Food Shed are providing the people of London with a better alternative to the current system. You can learn more about a circular economy for food in our recent Redesigning Food series. Just scroll back a few episodes in the feed in case you missed it. Thank you for listening to the London series of the Circular Economy Show Podcast. We'll be back soon to share conversations from this year's Summit. Make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. The Circular Economy Show podcast is published by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation and produced by Skinny Mammoth Media. Thank you to our contributors, Danny Fisher and Julie Brown. We'll speak to you next time.