Welcome back to The Circular Economy Show! In our new season premiere, we’re diving into the crucial intersection of climate change and the circular economy. Join us as we sit down with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation’s Climate Lead, Miranda Schnitger, to find out how the circular economy can help meet climate targets, why it needed to be noted in the official COP28 negotiation outcomes text, and why it’s important to stay optimistic while facing huge challenges.
Welcome back to The Circular Economy Show! In our new season premiere, we’re diving into the crucial intersection of climate change and the circular economy. Join us as we sit down with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation’s Climate Lead, Miranda Schnitger, to find out how the circular economy can help meet climate targets, why it needed to be noted in the official COP28 negotiation outcomes text, and why it’s important to stay optimistic while facing huge challenges.
For more information about the role of the Ellen MacArthur Foundation at COP28, go to The circular economy at COP section on our website.
Lou Waldegrave 00:00
Hi, welcome to the Circular Economy Show. I'm Lou Waldegrave and today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Miranda Schnitger.
Miranda Schnitger 00:08
Hi Lou, I work as the climate Lead here at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. And we
Lou Waldegrave 00:13
And we have been colleagues for now on eight years, this month, I believe, but neither of us have ever adorned the circular economy, podcast hot seats. So to christen them today, we are going to drill down on one of the biggest global challenges we currently face. We know that to meet the targets set out in the Paris Agreement, energy efficiency and renewable energy are absolutely vital. But they'll only tackle 55% of greenhouse gas emissions. So to actually have emissions by 2030, and reach net zero by 2050, we need to address the remaining 45%. And we can do this by changing the way we make and use products, materials and food. Miranda, what is the vital role it plays? And how can the circular economy help us to tackle climate change?
Miranda Schnitger 01:18
Starting off with the big questions. So the role that sector economy can play in tackling climate change, I think a lot of us think a lot all the time about the energy transition. And rightly so it's a huge part of where the focus needs to be where the action needs to be. But there are emissions that arise across the system that aren't just driven by the fuel that we're burning. So there's emissions in industry from like super high temperatures that are required that the renewable energy can't necessarily meet, there are emissions from processes that happen. So when you're making cement, there are missions that arise during that process that irrespective of what fuel has been used, there are emissions that arise from land use. So when we're changing land use when we're cutting down trees, again, emissions arise from that. That affects obviously, the whole agricultural sector as well, but also like land use is important to the built environment. And then of course, there are also emissions that come from just how we manage all these products that we put on the market when they when they're put into landfill when they're incinerated, that's another source of emissions. So, for those, we also need an answer. It's about 45% of emissions in this category of not being tackled by the energy transition. And that is where the circular economy comes into play. Because to tackle those, we need to change how we're producing and consuming. And that's what the circular economy is about. It's about rethinking how do we how do we produce? What do we produce what we put on the market? And when it's on the market? How do we use it? How do we keep it in use, and through doing that we can try and reduce the emissions that are coming from that side. So that's about 45% of the emissions sector economy has a really important role to play there.
Lou Waldegrave 02:58
So it's basically across every aspect of our current linear lives, isn't it? So who needs to take action? Yeah,
Miranda Schnitger 03:09
Yeah, um, because it's a system change framework, it does mean that it's not a single actor, there's no way even if you're brilliant at what you do, you're going to need the help other people. So business has a key role to play. And they're making loads of decisions all the time about what's produced and how it's produced and what's put on the market. So they have a key role in reimagining that through business models through design choices, who they partner with, policy has a huge role to play, because what government policy sets in forms, how many of us behave? So they those are two key actors, what finance chooses to invest in makes a difference. And then also us, like, we all know, we work in an NGO, but also we're individual citizens. So the choices that we make, too, so really, it encompasses everyone, which is not a surprising answer, because it is a systemic change that we're after.
Lou Waldegrave 04:02
Sso one of the places where some of those main actors do come together on an annual basis as cops. Now I know that caught 28 and Dubai last December wasn't your first copy of her. But it was the first time ever, that the circular economy was noted in the official negotiation outcomes text.
Miranda Schnitger 04:25
Yep.
Lou Waldegrave 04:26
Can you tell us why this is so significant? Yeah.
Miranda Schnitger 04:30
So we, as a foundation put out a paper in 2019 I believe it was called completing the picture.
Lou Waldegrave 04:37
Correct.
Miranda Schnitger 04:38
I'm glad I got the date. Right. Which which talked about some of what I've just been talking about. Everyone has a role to play in that sector economy is part of the solution. We've been going to cops since then, and very much making that argument. And so this time at COP 28 sort of adds fourth COP the fact that in the official negotiations with governments by ate and argue over every word and every comma that goes into that text. The fact that they not just said, production and consumption is important, but that production and consumption and circular economy solutions, as part of that are really important to how we cut emissions. That's a huge breakthrough, because that's official acknowledgement that this systems change, moving from a linear to a secular economy is part of the solution. So we're really excited that the government's agreed that that, you know, that was proposed, and it stayed in the text. And it's been agreed, it creates a real opportunity for us and everyone else who's working on this, to move to take another step forward, and not just focus on making the case for secular economies relevance, but really starting to focus on it is irrelevant. What are we going to do about it? How are we going to get it properly integrated? So it's, it's a few words on a document, but they are important words on an important document. And yeah, it's great that it went in this time, especially because it was that moment where they were doing an assessment of how far the world has got. And overall, we are off track over all, we do need to double down on our efforts. So it's good that this is included in part of that, because we do need all the solutions on the table now.
Lou Waldegrave 06:15
Well, I know it was music to many people's ears, especially around these buildings. Where do we hit next? What do we need to do next? Yeah, so
Miranda Schnitger 06:25
Yeah, so plenty of action, some of the things that we're looking at and working with our network on and partners. So one of them is building up more of the data and the accounting behind these projects. So for example, when companies are taking sector economy, activity or actions in their portfolios, can we can, we need to focus more on how we track the emissions of those. So our emissions not just from using recycled materials being factored in, but our emissions from business model changes being factored in. And that will help build up the evidence of on an individual case by case basis, because case studies and examples are just so powerful in sort of moving things along, right, like I'm sure, yeah, anyone who's seeking to believe in a new concept wants to know of examples. So that's a really important part building up that it will also help government decision making it will help science move forward. Another thing is focusing more on some of the climate policies, working out how some of the climate policies don't just support the energy transition, but can also support this transition in production and consumption, from Alinea to a sector economy. So those are two really big areas. The same time, I also hope that just the fact that it has been mentioned, provides a bit more of that impetus and go ahead for people to lean into this, like at the end of last year, I was at an event largely made up of startups from around from around well, it was probably more European because it was in London. But I think there are counterparts globally as well. And lots of the startups adopting sector economy ideas, in order to also bring down their emissions as well. So we need practical examples to be getting going on the ground, whilst we also do some of this other stuff around like making sure that we can capture the data better, so that we build up more, more confidence in in the reduction level, and also how we develop the policies that we need to go forward.
Lou Waldegrave 08:30
So having been to these, are you sort of optimistic that it will keep gaining momentum through to cop 29 and Azerbaijan, and follow on to Brazil in 2025? And how do you think we keep it as relevant and as an integral part of the solutions? Agenda discussions?
Miranda Schnitger 08:51
Yeah. You, I think you have to be optimistic because if you're not optimistic, then we're not going to do anything and we won't be advancing. So I think it's really important for organisations like us to keep leaning in, but also for loads of other people to be leaning into this as well. When we were at COP, we had discussions with different country pavilions with, with different institutions, different un institutions, different companies were on panels. So we do need people to be talking about their experiencing, sharing it sharing their challenges, but also sharing where they're having moments of success. So that needs to keep happening. I do think, I do think it will stay on the agenda. I actually think we need to sort of grow the focus on it. That is only going to happen if we keep leaning in. But yeah, I think we sound so weird to say but we don't have a choice other than to continue to lean in and aim to get the best possible results. So yeah, yeah, I have to stay a bit optimistic
Lou Waldegrave 09:58
Well, talking about growth. During the focus, especially the UN, and now talking about a triple planetary crisis, which includes climate change, biodiversity loss, waste and the resulting pollution, I know that you focus mainly on climate change. But how do you think the circular economy may sort of tackle these other crisis that we've got on our plates at the moment as well? Yeah,
Miranda Schnitger 10:22
I mean, I think it's, I think what's interesting is that sector economy anyway, a systems change solution. And for good reasons, we often look at things in silos. So the climate change challenge over here, and the biodiversity loss challenge over here, and waste and pollution over here. But actually, they also interconnected, they're sort of springing from the same problem of like, when you look at it from a sector economy, lens, the over extraction of virgin materials constantly, and then the like, loss and waste of them throughout the system, the linear system that we have. And I think there is growing understanding of the interconnection of these challenges, cop 28, the focus on how nature can be part of the solution of climate change, and also, that nature is threatened by climate change that sort of symbiotic relationship between the two, that was much more in focus. And I think that should stay like that. And I think it will stay like that cop 29, I think it'll be even stronger when it gets to cop 30 when it's being held in Brazil. So I think there's a connection there. And, you know, I was citing figures at the beginning of 45% of emissions coming from how we produce and consume. Others have also said that the material extraction is leading sort of 90% of biodiversity loss and water stress. So it's clear that there's a real, like sector economy solutions can help on both of these fronts. And of course, the waste and pollution side is, is, is one that actually is the first connection many people make with the sector economy, right? Like we do want to eliminate waste and pollution, keep products and materials in use, and regenerate nature. And I think I think there are lots of good processes currently happening as well around tackling waste and pollution, one that we as a foundation are very connected to is for example, the the efforts to develop a UN treaty around tackling plastic pollution and bringing sector economy into that. So I think, yes, I think it's actually quite good that the UN has acknowledged that there's this triple interconnected crisis. cops do focus on climate, but they are increasingly acknowledging that nature is part of that as well. And I think that connection between waste and pollution and climate is perhaps not as developed, but I think it will develop more as well.
Lou Waldegrave 12:40
It's such, it comes across as such a huge, almost inconceivable challenge. But when I talk to people like you and hear that there are solutions out there, and they can be achieved, I actually come away feeling a lot better. So I want to thank you so much for joining me today, Miranda. Oh, thank
Miranda Schnitger 13:02
Oh, thank you. It's been lovely. And yeah, I mean, like I said, I think we have to, we have to keep leaning into this. Yeah, otherwise, yeah. I don't like thinking about the alternative. And the alternative can be a bit scary. So yes, go keep leaning in.
Lou Waldegrave 13:15
Thank goodness for people like you. And I hope we do this again soon. Thanks for listening to this episode of the circular economy show. Don't forget to like and subscribe to this podcast where ever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time.