E-waste is our fastest-growing waste stream, expanding five times faster than we can recycle it. But it's also one of our greatest untapped opportunities. With the demand for critical minerals showing no signs of stopping, recovering materials from the billions of dollars’ worth of mobile phones hibernating in our drawers is increasingly important.
E-waste is our fastest-growing waste stream, expanding five times faster than we can recycle it. But it's also one of our greatest untapped opportunities.
With the demand for critical minerals showing no signs of stopping, recovering materials from the billions of dollars’ worth of mobile phones hibernating in our drawers is increasingly important.
In this episode, the Ellen MacArthur Foundation’s Danielle Holly, Executive Lead for North America, and Wen-Yu Weng, Executive Lead for Critical Minerals, join Pippa to explore how the circular economy can transform how we produce, use, and recover electronics, and the critical minerals inside them.
Find out more about the Foundation’s work in Critical Minerals.
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[00:00:00.020] - Danielle
We have billions of dollars of mobile phones actually sitting in our drawers.
[00:00:04.420] - Wen-Yu
So how can we design the kind of products that are more durable, last longer, but still provides the value for consumers?
[00:00:14.770] - Pippa
E-waste is our richest and fastest growing waste stream, but it's also growing at 5 times faster than we can recycle it. That seems like a great opportunity for the circular economy. And so to discuss that today, I'm joined by Danielle and Wen-Yu from our executive leadership team here at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. Welcome both.
[00:00:31.870] - Danielle
So good to be here. Hi, Pippa.
[00:00:33.690] - Wen-Yu
Thanks for having me.
[00:00:34.810] - Pippa
Wen-Yu, if we can start with you, you were here a couple of months ago talking about critical minerals for EV batteries. What's the link here with electronics of a wider variety?
[00:00:45.890] - Wen-Yu
Yes. So I think the last time I was on the podcast, I talked a lot about EV batteries because that is one of our core programmes under Critical Minerals for Energy Transition. But it's also really important to point out that critical minerals is used in many, many things. It goes into a lot of technologies and sectors in energy transition, and we want to deal with that because energy transition is part of working on energy affordability, access, and things like climate change. But critical minerals also goes into what we would say is the digital transition. So the various digital devices that we have in our pockets, the digital connectivity that connects us and creates inclusivity in society and things like the digital economy. So the data centres and the AI that requires these data centres. So we know critical minerals is a huge part of that equation, and Danielle and her team has been doing quite a lot of work in the electronic space to look at the circular economy of critical minerals in that sector.
[00:01:41.170] - Pippa
Well, let's hear a bit about that, Danielle. I think we've all probably got some old mobile phones cluttering up our drawers, but what else have you been working on, and what's that situation?
[00:01:49.130] - Danielle
We do. We have billions of dollars of mobile phones actually sitting in our drawers hibernating. I mean, we've been, at EMF, trying to answer this question of how can technology enable the circular economy for a really long time. And what we're seeing now is a digital transformation that is moving at such an incredibly rapid pace. What Wen-Yu was just talking about. And we are seeing because of that, the devices, the data servers that power that both at the consumer level and the business level are being produced and scaled really rapidly. And what we need to do is make sure that as those systems and those products are scaled, that we have a circular approach to figuring out how to reuse, resell, refurbish them. There are, I think, it's 160 times value of those models over recycling those devices. And certainly over them in landfills, in our drawers.
[00:02:57.530] - Danielle
And so one of the things that we've been engaging companies and policymakers are on how do we, as you said how do we tap into that fastest growing but most valuable waste stream that we have as a globe, and particularly in North America right now, the demand and the supply chain conversations around critical minerals are so present and core to how we're thinking about our economy. And so a natural place for us to focus and make sure that as we're at this inflexion point of growth, that we have circular principles in mind.
[00:03:37.780] - Pippa
Yeah. And Wen-Yu, maybe you can remind us about what the opportunities there are of having that circular economy. And I mean, nobody listening to this is thinking, "I don't think circular economy is a great idea," but when it comes to electronics, what are the wins, I guess?
[00:03:53.030] - Wen-Yu
Yes. And I think if you recall last time we had a conversation when I talked about EV batteries, one of the things around EV batteries is, of course, we know there's going to be a lot more EV batteries in the future. We're taking a look at the first generation of EV batteries coming to end of life now, but also circular economy is about future fitting the future growth of EV batteries. But I think we're in a very different and very exciting situation with electronics in North America and Europe. People like you and I probably already had many, many mobile phones. There is already the stock to create the sort of economies of scale around recycling, reverse logistics, infrastructure.
[00:04:33.590] - Wen-Yu
So when we're looking at electronics, as Danielle said, there's immense growth in the future, but there's already quite a strong baseline of materials hibernating in our drawers that we can address today. And so in electronics, it's a really exciting balance between we have something that we can do now to address the past stock of materials sitting and hiding various corners of our economy, but it's also about creating that future-fit economy in the same way that we are doing for EV batteries and the other part of critical minerals. We have both, and I think that's really exciting.
[00:05:04.660] - Pippa
I love that you're both using the term hibernating. It brings up this... I'm thinking of Snow White lying dormant there waiting for-
[00:05:13.240] - Danielle
To come out in the spring. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what Wen-Yu just touched on is so important is that the interest and the demand for these critical minerals that are in secondary markets the reuse, refurbish, resale, remanufacture, recycle is there. The technology to extract them for the most part is there. And what we've learned as we've been exploring this is that what's really missing is the ability to collect them, get them out of those drawers at scale, just to pick on that example, but there are many other examples. And then to actually extract the critical minerals from them, even either in a modular way or the mineral itself.
[00:05:57.530] - Danielle
And that is where we really need to tie the value chain together. Because we've got big demand from OEMs and companies that are manufacturing these products, those that are in the business of resale and refurb. And we have the technology and the infrastructure and the companies that are working downstream to support that second life, third, fourth life, but we don't have it at scale, and we don't have it in the right places. We don't have it close to where the devices are being made. So there are some pretty clear and simple solutions that are complex to execute against because of the geopolitical realities that we're all looking at. But it's one of those... It's a problem that we can solve.
[00:06:41.880] - Pippa
And is it a global problem? And is it something... Because you head up our North America team, so I guess you've looked into North America more, but is it quite transferable between places? Is North America a particular hub for that?
[00:06:55.730] - Danielle
It is very transferable between places. What differs significantly is the policy environment and the actual demand for critical minerals. North America is a great example. Even within North America alone, the US has a lot of big tech manufacturers. 33% of global tech is in North America. High demand for critical minerals, very low actual resource of critical minerals, versus Canada just our neighbour to the north, that has a very high resource of critical minerals but not necessarily the production. So you can take that story and expand it globally. But in general, the solutions that we're looking at are very applicable globally outside of North America.
[00:07:44.690] - Pippa
And you talked about how this is a relatively simple solution, but quite complicated to-
[00:07:49.660] - Danielle
I'll bite my words with that.
[00:07:51.920] - Pippa
Maybe a bit more complicated to execute. So what are the things that make it tricky?
[00:07:56.330] - Danielle
One of the things that we haven't done well is really aggregate and signal the demand for this. So in concept, private investors, infrastructure companies, builders know in concept that there is some upstream demand for secondary markets for critical minerals, but how much and when, and if they build it, will they come? And so that's part of what we're trying to put a finer point on right now, to make it a bit more known information that yes, we need this infrastructure at this part of the value chain to unlock what we all want to see.
[00:08:35.240] - Pippa
And what about policy and things like that? Is that a challenge to get across the border? Is it already happening?
[00:08:42.370] - Danielle
That is a very big question. Policy is more challenging in some places than others. Right now, what I have seen... We're based in New York in the US, and critical minerals is one of the few policy dimensions, government conversations that is really resonant across the board, across all affiliation, all policy perspectives and points of view. So I think in critical minerals in particular, we have a lot of opportunity, but what that looks like, of course, country by country is so different.
[00:09:23.980] - Pippa
Yeah. And what do you want to see going forward when you... Because I guess when we're talking about consumer electronics. We're not saying don't make anything new. We're not saying don't sell secondhand, because that's definitely been a big opportunity that we've seen in the market. So where does this all fit in?
[00:09:43.700] - Wen-Yu
Yes, so I think the first thing is one of the things that Danielle talked about, the ability to use policy and businesses to align on creating a functioning secondary supply chain market. I think that's super interesting. I think from an overall mission's perspective for critical minerals, because I think if we can succeed in doing that with electronics, while it might not be entirely transferable to all the other products that use critical minerals, it is a bit of a lighthouse case for how we can bring different competitors, different parts of the supply chain, business, and policy together. So I think it's really interesting to see what's going to happen and how the Foundation convenes stakeholders around this problem.
[00:10:27.090] - Wen-Yu
I think the other thing is, if we take a step back, whether it is electronics or whether it is car batteries or whether it is something else, anything that uses critical minerals, sure, we can talk about what happens to it at end of life. But I think there needs to be a fundamental discussion about what kind of business models we prioritise and reward. For example, the policies that we create, the market competition that we shape. And I think actually market competition don't exist in a vacuum. I think market competitions exist in a world where government can shape and nudge consumer preferences, and we as consumers can also vote with our money. So I think there's a lot of interesting conversations around how can we shape new kinds of business models to innately encourage more circular practises, whether it is for electronics or batteries, it's all the same.
[00:11:19.240] - Wen-Yu
And the final thing for me is really quite moving upstream. So as we said, there's a huge opportunity because there are already millions of devices and the critical minerals in those devices are a source for urban mining. But a lot of these devices are being retired much, much earlier. They could have lasted much, much longer. Some of it is a business model issue. Some of it is a consumer appetite issue. We want the next best thing. But some of it is also a design problem. So how can we design the kind of products that are more durable, last longer, but still provides the value for consumers. And again, that's regardless of product. So I see our work in electronics as a lighthouse for a lot of these conversations that we're having elsewhere in critical minerals.
[00:12:03.120] - Danielle
So to just drill into that for a moment, because I think it's such an important point we're doing right now some research on smartphone circularity in North America. And one of the things... Two things that have come up that are relevant. One is the design of standard components and how do we... With a smartphone in particular, 95% of those components can be standard. Companies, tech companies, developers historically have been really worried about intellectual property and how do I make my X phone the best one on the market and brand it. But you can do that while still having a large percentage of the phone be standard across different companies, industries, models. And so I think that has been a very hard conversation to push. But again, where I say the solution is easy, it's because it exists. Not because gathering a bunch of big tech firms around the table necessarily to agree on IP is easy. That's one thing.
[00:13:09.740] - Danielle
I think the second thing that we need to look at is with policy, even some policy, there are some environments that are friendly and some that are less friendly. But even the friendly circular economy policies sometimes are disincentivizing circularity with electronics right now. EPR, as an example, measures when you take a product out of the recycle piles to remanufacture and reuse and resell them, they no longer count for companies' value of recycling. So they are essentially working against a company's circular economy goals and objectives unintentionally. That is not the intent of the law, but that is how it is written right now. And so something like that, I think, is a starting place for us to unpack, where we are trying to enable circularity, sustainable practises, but actually in some pockets of circular economy are working against them.
[00:14:15.100] - Pippa
So what do we need next? I mean, it sounds like getting people around the table is helpful and shaping some of those policies with true circularity in mind is quite important as well.
[00:14:26.960] - Danielle
I mean, there are many answers to that question. I'd be curious, Wen-Yu, how you would answer it. But I think we need industry's voice on this. This is a place where industry has a... We've been talking about tech companies, but this is across industry, across discipline. Small, large, we need to hear very publicly from industry companies and them together on the need for secondary markets and critical minerals and to secure their supply chains at the micro level. We talk about at the macro level, but the very micro level, this is a business challenge that is being talked about at the board level. And at the C-suite level within some of our largest companies, we need to hear that from them so that we can inform and influence policymakers and private investment in different parts of the value chain.
[00:15:22.520] - Pippa
What's your view on that, Wen-Yu?
[00:15:23.570] - Wen-Yu
Yeah, I completely agree. I think we need to convene the industry around the table to discuss what could be done together and to put people that will otherwise be competitors together. And so they realise it's a bit of a win-win proposition to have circular economy. And I think part of getting to visualising how something can be a win-win proposition is the role of greater civil society groups, researchers, universities, think tanks, because some of these problems aren't... To Danielle's point earlier, they're not fundamentally technical problems. It's not about our inability to extract materials from old phones. A lot of this is economics nudge policy, market design. And it calls for researchers and thinkers from across a very interdisciplinary space.
[00:16:15.200] - Wen-Yu
And I think a lot of times if you... And this is not just the case in electronics, it's the case in almost all the sectors that we want to disrupt with the circular economy. A lot of times you don't want to be the only company doing the right thing because it doesn't pay. So we have this race to the bottom mindset of we're competing on, for example, selling more models, newer models. We're competing on you need the latest features. So whether it is like looking downstream at recycling or looking upstream at the business model and design, we're competing on things that in the long term it's a net loss to society. But it wouldn't work if there's only a few companies moving in the right direction.
[00:16:52.630] - Wen-Yu
And so to overcome this game theoretic problem, you really need not just the businesses to come together and realise it, but you need the evidence, you need academic research, you need the economic studies, you need the policymakers. So it's really getting to a circular economy holistically is a very interdisciplinary effort, I think. And so the business case has to work, but we also need the social sciences, the humanities, the thinkers.
[00:17:19.100] - Pippa
And I know that you're both having a lot of those conversations at the moment. And because our Critical Minerals mission is quite new, you're still, Wen-Yu, looking for partners and people to speak to. So we can put a link in the show notes to how to do that.
[00:17:31.230] - Danielle
Join us. Join us.
[00:17:34.110] - Pippa
Danielle, what else? I mean, I know you mentioned you're looking at smartphones in particular. If people want to find out more about this, what should they be looking out for over the next months, years?
[00:17:45.910] - Danielle
Yes. Yeah. I mean, we have a couple of workshops and gatherings and collaborations to get to that industry voice that I was talking about happening this year. So look at the show notes and connect with us. I'd also say this is a place where we are really thinking about the digital transformation more broadly. How can we leverage AI to enable a circular economy? And that has the environmental impact part of the conversation we've been having today around data servers. But I think there's an entirely interesting part of the conversation around how can AI make sure that this sort of content is in all of our back pockets and that we just understand. And I think in my mind, that comes back, for me, to one of the powers of electronics. It's almost a universally shared experience. So many of us have cell phones, so many of us have laptops. And so if we can change the way that... To your point around social psychology, if we can change the way that we think and engage with those devices and not think about ownership as so critically important, but think about the service that they are providing us, to me, that starts to bring circular economy into our homes and get those phones out of the drawers. I looked before I sat down here. I have three.
[00:19:20.180] - Pippa
I feel like I could beat you.
[00:19:22.420] - Danielle
And this is something I deeply care about.
[00:19:24.090] - Pippa
Three's not too bad.
[00:19:25.630] - Danielle
I have three. So I think this gets it into hearts and minds in a different way, which is really exciting.
[00:19:32.360] - Pippa
Lots to think about there, but we'll definitely have to get you both back when this is further down the line, because I think it really resonates with a lot of people and with a lot of businesses as they try and think through these issues. But thank you for joining us today, Danielle and Wen-Yu.
[00:19:48.500] - Wen-Yu
Thank you.
[00:19:49.060] - Danielle
Thank you.
[00:19:50.350] - Pippa
We'll put the links in the show notes that we mentioned. And if you enjoyed this episode, then please leave us a review or share with your friends and colleagues. We'll see you next time.